Another response to Fighting Sioux vs. Fighting Irish:
News flash, Rob: White people have been exterminated, conquered, exploited, and mistreated in the past too.
Let's see here: I'm descended from Irish Catholics. Therefore:
I'm still upset that St. Patrick imposed Christianity on my druid ancestors. And I'm pissed at the Vikings for plundering my ancestors' villages and then taking them as their own. I'm still mourning the death of Brian Boru in the Battle of Clontarf and I am considering seeking reparations from the Norse government. And of course I'm still upset at England taking over and imposing their rule and law upon my ancestors and replacing the Irish language with English in the national schools. My ancestors were barred from voting or even attending the Irish Parliament following the Protestant Reformation in the 1600s, so naturally I still hold a grudge against all Protestants.
I'm not even up to the 20th century yet, but look at my list of grievances. My Irish ancestors meet your qualifications: They were exterminated, they had property stolen from them and overtaken my enemies who moved in uninvited, their language was lost, and they were discriminated against and barred from government of their own lands. But you know what? I'm not bitter. I don't even think about it. As a matter of fact, I had to look up the history of Ireland online to even find out about all of the things I wrote above.
I agree with your friend Jeff. It's time for the Indians (and native Hawaiians) to just get over it. They're not the first group of people to be conquered and they won't be the last. Someday the United States will be conquered too, no doubt. Hopefully it won't be for centuries yet, but when it does my descendants won't be whining and crying about their mistreatment. They'll fight their asses off to defend their way of life and the survivors will hold their heads high even in defeat. Life is not fair and it deals you crap sometimes. Rather than dwell on it by staying mired in the bitter past, find the silver lining and move bravely forward into a new future.
I asked a few correspondents if they had "any comments on the following message?" Their replies:
Oh, I'm sorry, have the Northern and Southern Irish NOT been fighting for centuries? That's funny, because that's [what] my Irish ancestors have passed down through our oral tradition. Her ancestors, and many American Indians too, did accept control by the conqueror. But many did not, and don't accept it now. Ever hear of the IRA???
Dear Bonnie, I'm Irish too, as well as Native American. I am descended from the keepers of the histories and genealogies—clan O'Clierigh. I know our history, and guess what, it sadly parallels that of the Native tribes. Both were wonderfully creative, civilized people whose land was invaded by strangers who expended huge resources to make themselves look justified and their conquered look savage—in both cases it was a lie.
The penal laws stole the religion (or attempted to), the language was stolen, the land most certainly was stolen, and millions of songs were sung, speeches made, and treaties signed. The ONLY way Ireland got its freedom was by revolution.
So, if you are recommending the Native People hold a revolution to do as the Irish did, I wonder what Homeland Security might have to say to you. I think lawsuits are cleaner and cause a lot less bloodshed. Don't you?
If this is not what you meant, perhaps you are just saying what many people tell rape victims—"just get over it."
I recommend a book to you, "The Great Hunger" by Cecil Woodham-Smith.
It is about Irish history. After you read it, try reading, "And Still the Water Run" by Angie Debo.
Then tell me what you think of the email you sent Rob.
To be charitable, she's an idiot, not just once but twice over.
First because she names a number of tragedies which don't affect her in the here and now. If she'd named stereotypes about drunkenness then she'd be on stronger ground. And if she'd talked about "How the Irish Became White" and had much of their culture destroyed or had to abandon it to become "white" she'd really have made a good case, except for one thing...
Then she'd have to admit she shares common ground with nonwhites.
And that leads to the second part of her idiocy. She seemingly goes out of her way to deny history, to deny any feeling with anyone whose suffered ANY tragedy, anywhere.
Here's my challenge to her: Go to any [synagogue] and tell everyone there "Just get over the Holocaust." See if you are not correctly labeled both ignorant and an anti-Semite, just as now she looks like an ignorant Indian-hater.
Better yet, go down to New Orleans right now and tell them all to get over it.
After all, that's ultimately her argument, that no one should give a damn about anyone else's suffering.
Bonnie Taylor needs to get an education and quit with the rhetoric. Her diatribe is pretty old hat—heard it before—will again.
Obviously she hasn't had any dealings with the Irish, their generations long battle against the Crown—can't imagine where she's been that the IRA doesn't ring a bell, so to speak. Talk about bitter—
Last I was in Ireland, they were pretty prone to breaking into Gaellic—just as the Welsh—at least many of them—speak Welsh—put up a huge battle to get it mandated as their national language—
Hispanics have made great headway—here in the east, we now have everything in both English and Spanush—fine by me—
And religion—a man made item at best—no stone tablets handed down—is usually a matter of choice—
When everyone was protestant—they hid their priests in hidey holes—when it was the thing to be Catholic—they took off for parts where they could be—Mennonites, Wesleyans, Ana Baptists, Amish, Pilgrim, Separatists—you name it—whatever.
I descend from Leif the Lucky—a Viking—they intermingled with the Indians here on this continent.
My ancestors on the Scots side took a big hit during/after the Battle of Cullodon—the nasty Duke of Cumberland—they ended up here and married Indians—
Ms Taylor has taken what suits—put it into a synopsis that, on the surface, might, to the uneducated—make sense.
You do note, she doesn't say the Jews should get over it? Nor does she mention Black Americans—doubt she's about to take them on.
Add that to her commentary she knew nothing of her background—had to look it up online. How sad is that—talk about whistling in the dark—and, the diatribe is all posted from the safe and sound, US of A—
Ms Taylor hasn't a clue—probably doesn't know any Indians—the ignorance and insensitivity leaps from the page—not worth worrying about—it appears to be a failed attempt at irony and faux intelligentsia—
Maybe wannabe political savvy?
P.S. Plus—and it goes back to what I commented on—she ran enough truth and actual events/people—in her rant to make it sound authentic.
Until she can show those exact happenings/people affected her parents, grandparents, their life styles, pocketbooks, living areas—personally, literally and she is paying for it all daily...
She hasn't got a leg to stand on.
Before I read these other fine replies, I sent Bonnie my own reply:
>> I'm not even up to the 20th century yet, but look at my list of grievances. <<
Maybe you should've started in the 20th century, since you failed to make your point. Indians have faced continuing oppression, injustice, and prejudice from 500 years ago till the present. I keep documenting the examples in my Stereotype of the Month contest, yet people like you keep missing the message. Let me know when you see any anti-Irish racism or stereotyping comparable to that faced by Indians every day.
>> My Irish ancestors meet your qualifications: They were exterminated, they had property stolen from them and overtaken my enemies who moved in uninvited, their language was lost, and they were discriminated against and barred from government of their own lands. <<
One, only some of your ancestors were Irish Catholics. Your non-Irish Catholic ancestors didn't face these problems. Two, the Irish probably have suffered the most of any Europeans, other than the Jews. English, German, and Scandinavian Americans don't have similar hardships in their backgrounds.
>> But you know what? I'm not bitter. I don't even think about it. <<
Whether you realize it or not, you still haven't addressed my claims. For instance, you think some of your ancestors may have lost their land, although you can't document it. Many Irish people were never displaced from their homelands. In contrast, the vast majority of Indians did lose their ancestral homelands. These are real losses, not hypothetical ones.
More important, you haven't addressed my claim that "it's easy to live in the present when your ancestors succeeded because of past privileges." The Irish overcame their disadvantages because they were white and it was relatively easy to assimilate. Indians, blacks, and Latinos had and have no such advantage.
>> I agree with your friend Jeff. It's time for the Indians (and native Hawaiians) to just get over it. <<
Spoken like someone whose people are flush with perks and privileges. You vote for conservative politicians who continue to deny Indians their treaty rights, in violation of the law, and think you're being fair. What you're actually doing is voting to retain your hundreds of years of perks and privileges—again, whether you realize it or not.
>> Someday the United States will be conquered too, no doubt. Hopefully it won't be for centuries yet, but when it does my descendants won't be whining and crying about their mistreatment. <<
"Your people" are already whining about their treatment. The white Christian majority feels persecuted by "liberals," for instance, because they can't post the Ten Commandments outside courts or broadcast prayers in schools. Rather than accept the will of the judiciary, they're crying about the courts running amok and betraying the Constitution.
I could give countless examples of "your people" whining and complaining about not getting what they deserve. Do you think the self-reliant red-staters along the Gulf Coast will spurn government aid and pull themselves up by their bootstraps after Katrina? No, they're already carping about how the government hasn't done enough to help them.
>> Life is not fair and it deals you crap sometimes. <<
By "life" you must mean the federal government. I didn't know they were synonymous.
The onslaught against Indians wasn't an act of God; it was a series of intentional acts by the US government. These acts continue because ignorant people like you claim there's nothing anyone can do about them except "get over it."
So you tolerate the injustices against others because doing something about them might inconvenience your life of white privilege. You're a self-centered bastard who doesn't care about other people's suffering. In other words, you're a typical conservative-libertarian.
>> Rather than dwell on it by staying mired in the bitter past, find the silver lining and move bravely forward into a new future. <<
The problems Indians face aren't in the past, nitwit. Indians are protesting the injustices that started in the past and continue to this day. That's the simple truth you're apparently unable to understand.
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