Another response to Wingfooting It with Wyatt. The mighty Khan again tries to tackle my arguments, with predictable results:

>> Wyatt Wingfoot debuted in the Silver Age, and thus long before 1996, and your first Native American astronaut. <<

The Wizard claimed Wynona Wingfoot would be the first Native astronaut (actually, the first Native in space) in 2000. I pointed out that a Native became an astronaut in 1996. When Wyatt Wingfoot or anyone else debuted is irrelevant to this point.

>> "The message this portrayal sends in the year 2000" is also irrelevant, as Wingfoot was created during the Silver Age. <<

Today's comics are written today and convey today's messages.

>> IOW, it's naïve to expect a Silver Age hero to live up to 21st century sensibilities. <<

Virtually every hero has evolved with the times, including Superman, Spider-Man, and Wyatt Wingfoot. Comics such as FF #29 are written today for today's audience. If their messages are timeless, it's only because a timeless message is still relevant today.

If a comic wants to maintain a retro '60s sensibility—which few if any comics want to do—that presumably includes the stereotypes of the era. If so, I can call them on having an attitude 40 years out of date. That's the whole point of stereotypes—that they're out-of-date attitudes.

>> [If today's comics convey today's messages] Then why does "Black Panther" still exist? <<

Because the character is still valid today. Not because "The Black Panthers" were a '60s concept and Marvel has to retain the link with the '60s.

>> Marvel / DC comics by and large are run on a combination of business and tradition. No matter how many abortion stories Peter David wants to write, all comics are ultimately an attempt to update old stories, and as is the case with Wyatt Wingfoot as an example, that means maintaining old racisms in many cases. <<

No, it means updating and eliminating old racisms. If maintaining were all that mattered, Captain American would still be fighting yellow-skinned Japs and goosestepping Ratzis.

>> Again, can't blame the past for /being/ the past. Although I guess you /could/ blame Marvel for clinging to it <<

If you think they're intentionally clinging to their past racism, rather than myopically unaware of their present racism, I'll be happy to blame them for that. Either way, it's wrong.

>> again, if you understand how Marvel Comics functions as a business, this too doesn't make any sense. These intellectual properties are the substance of Marvel Comics, listed on their Balance Sheet as "intangible assets" -- discarding them would mean taking a loss, which again, makes no sense.) <<

"Wyatt Wingfoot" isn't a registered trademark—unlike, say, "Fantastic Four." If Wyatt were a registered trademark, Marvel would be right to defend the character. But the character's existence and racist depictions of the character are completely separate matters. The character can exist with or without the racist depictions.

If you think Marvel has to defend the stereotypes and errors in Chris Claremont's FF #29, you're daft. Show me where these specific stereotypes appeared in Wyatt Wingfoot's first appearances before we waste any more time on this nonsense. Good luck proving they're part of his "mythos."

>> [Virtually every hero has evolved with the times] To the extent that they COULD. <<

A publisher can update virtually every character. The Black Panther and Wyatt Wingfoot are both examples. Let's take a look at some of their contemporaries:

FF:  Reed and Sue married, Sue gave birth to Franklin, Sue upgraded to "Invisible Woman," Human Torch married Lyja, several membership and costume changes.

Hulk:  Several changes in color and personality, married Betty Ross, Betty died.

Sub-Mariner:  Lost Lady Dorma and his kingdom, became a businessman, joined the Avengers.

Iron Man:  Became an alcoholic, developed multiple suits of armor, lost his company in a hostile takeover.

Giant-Man:  Numerous name and costume changes, married Wasp, developed split personality, suffered nervous breakdown, expelled from Avengers, divorced Wasp.

Thor:  Dr. Blake identity eliminated, wimpy Jane Foster became doctor, bonded with new Jake Olsen ID.

Scarlet Witch:  Married Vision, father revealed as Magneto, gained magical powers, had children, lost children, divorced Vision, etc.

Spider-Man:  Gwen Stacy killed, married Mary Jane Watson, had a baby, cloned, baby kidnapped, Mary Jane died.

Daredevil:  Partnered with Black Widow, history with Stick and Elektra invented, Karen Page killed.

Captain Marvel:  Radical upgrade to costume and powers, died of cancer.

Inhumans:  Changes too numerous to list.

X-Men:  Changes too numerous to list. (Consider the changes to the Angel and Beast alone.)

These are merely the changes that come immediately mind. There are many others. Yet you claim Marvel has to preserve the tiniest racist details of Wyatt Wingfoot, a minor character who appears maybe once every five years? Incredible.

Talk about missing the forest for the trees. From your little hidey-hole, you've missed the entire Amazon jungle.

>> A character like Tyroc, for example, no longer /exists/ because he /can't/ be adjusted for time -- same with both Mandrake the Magician and Lothar, his Black SLAVE. <<

Who says Tyroc doesn't exist? DC updated him just fine in Giffen's Adult Legion series. Or did you miss his appearances there?

As for whether he exists in the rebooted continuity, I don't think so. Not yet, anyway. But a creative team could easily insert him with a new costume and origin. Only these details are outdated.

Of course, the whole Legion has changed radically over its 40 years. People have aged to adulthood, married, and died. Then DC started the whole series over, with many more innovations. Yet you say a company (like DC) has to maintain its Silver Age properties (like the Legion) intact? You don't know what you're freakin' talking about.

>> if you want to use a Silver Age character, you have to accept that Silver Age sensibilities are imbedded in their nature; to take that away would change the character. <<

Review the entire Superman line to find out how much of the Silver Age trappings a company can abandon without harming a character. Continue with the Batman line (multiple Robins, new Batgirl, revised Catwoman, etc.) Take a peek at the Silver Age Flash (died), Green Lantern (turned into a megalomaniac), Supergirl (died), Aquaman (hand chopped off), Robin (became Nightwing), and the rest of DC's pantheon. Almost no character has remained the same.

Were you around when DC rebooted its entire universe two or three times? Apparently not. In your make-believe world, the Justice Society, Captain Marvel, the Freedom Fighters, Charlton's heroes, et al. fight on the same as always, and never the twain shall meet.

How many Silver Age trappings must a company retain to market its characters? Very few. As with your defense of the traditional Batman, you seem blind to the changes characters have gone through without suffering a loss of sales.

>> Marvel isn't going to eliminate a racist character if s/he's "classic" just because their attitudes are out of date -- that would be both losing and intangible asset <<

Wyatt isn't a classic because Claremont says he comes from a tribe with a mixture of pueblos and wickiups. Nor because Claremont thinks most Indian tribes are mired in hopelessness and despair. Nor because Claremont claims Oklahoma's tribes are rich with oil revenues. These are trivial details—mistaken trivial details. They're not part of Wyatt's background and they don't require your pathetic defense.

>> The target audience for Marvel's core characters is society at large; this means that as long as children (who are too young to understand / recognize stereotyping) continue to buy them, they'll continue to make them. <<

Wyatt Wingfoot isn't a core character. If he were, Marvel would trademark him. Companies may easily revamp minor characters without harming their overall mythology. Wyatt is no more central to the Fantastic Four than is Alicia Masters, Crystal, the Skrulls, Willie Lumpkin, or the Baxter Building, all of which have undergone major changes since their debuts.

>> Continues To Make 'Em Too <<

Continues to make what...mistakes? I'll grant you that much. So far you're batting .001. You find one actual mistake for every thousand you claim.

Rob

More arguments with Khan
Khan's review of PEACE PARTY
Indian comics:  Art vs. propaganda

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